This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com: https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781
It has also been posted to lemmy.ca: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991
Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it’s important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone’s politics, and I’m certainly not here to argue with anyone about them.
My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen.
Moderators of lemmy.ml are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors.
This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml user ban citing “orientalism” as the reason for the ban.
Screenshot of my own instance’s modlog, as viewed by an admin
I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in !worldnews@lemmy.ml that had been removed with the reason “Orientalist article”.
Screenshot of banned user’s history on lemmy.ml
Here’s the article that was removed, titled “China may face succession crisis”. It was published by axios.com, which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having “a slight to moderate liberal bias” and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping.
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/
I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml’s rules that would suggest that “orientalism”—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance’s front page, and not in !worldnews@lemmy.ml.
Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml
Screenshot of community rules for !worldnews@lemmy.ml
There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government.
This is where I went from confused to concerned.
Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml’s moderation log.
Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It’s hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml moderators. My own instance’s mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml community. I’ve done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml moderators, but I can’t be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism.
Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China’s racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org reason: Orientalism
Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don’t know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn’t behave like China. by @balerion@beehaw.org reason: Orientalism
These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance’s or community’s explicitly stated rules.
Banned @0x815@feddit.de reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban expires: 9d ago
Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org reason: Rule 1 and 2
I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml’s moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It’s only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules.
I’d like to raise some awareness about this, and I’d like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly.
I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don’t share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml’s rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.
Removed by mod
If such content should be banned, then the admins or mods should put it in the rules. Simple.
Otherwise, it is a violation of the site’s stated policy and what we call “power-tripping”, individuals promoting personal beliefs through site moderation abuse. There are communities like Lemmygrad which are (more) clear on what users and staff expect from each other.
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This does not even acknowledge the critique of this post or my reply. You’re apparently not listening or discussing our side.
We’re not saying those new users’ attitudes aren’t an issue!
We’re also not saying that such people shouldn’t be banned!
We’re saying it’s being handled inappropriately by people who don’t apply the rules they are obliged to enforce.
In a situation, like you said, their offense isn’t “orientalism”. Their offense may be vitriolic bad-faith discussion, and if it isn’t, then the rules should be updated to align with moderation standards.
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It should be, I agree!
It isn’t a normalized thing, and the current policy of staff isn’t helping to make it normal. They have a good opportunity to teach people normalized orientalism is xenophobic, but this opportunity is squandered through their poorly-explained ban reasons and rules. Very simple steps can make it clearer to offenders that they are being chauvinistic when they (mistakenly!) think they’re being anti-racist. The way things are, they think they’re being banned “for no reason” and will just do the same thing again.
The issue is that they don’t realize their attitude is demeaning, it’s not that they think racism or xenophobia is ok, they just actually don’t understand why what they’re doing is racist or xenophobic, and so small adjustments to the rules page (such as “racism and xenophobia, including orientalism” with a link to an explaining page) would provide an up-front opportunity to explain that they are being chauvinistic and give a chance to learn.
If you read the post carefully, you may notice how I tried to make it clear that I am not arguing against the policy. I am arguing that the policy should be clearly and openly stated, so that it does not come as a surprise to anyone.
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I feel like we are having two different conversations. I broadly agree with what you’ve written here about the preconceptions that people have, and the value of discourse. You don’t have to convince me.
The point which I wish to make here is that the admins and moderators of lemmy.ml should be clear about the rules that users are expected to follow. I presented my case that a rule is being enforced that has not been written anywhere. I have asked that the rule be written instead of unwritten. I am concerned that failing to clearly communicate rules to people before enforcing them is likely to lead to frustration and scandal as the community grows.
I understand your passion. But I feel that the point I’m trying to make is important. I have to ask that you engage with that point, instead of attacking me personally and accusing me of ignorance.
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It is very hypocritical for you to critique others for “refusing to listen and debate” when you’re:
Telling a nonwestern user what to do while they are calling out orientalism? This sounds like disdain for nonwestern people to me a.k.a. racism.
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It is guilt by association when OP makes a post, other people reply in a chauvaistic manner, and you decide the OP is the one you need to argue with.