The instance seems to be mostly right wing trolls. I know defederating is unpopular but I don’t think much is to be lost in this case and it can save the mods some headaches.
Edit: the response on exploding-heads.com to my reporting of transphobia. Courtesy of the “second in command”
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Yeah I must confess I recently went over there and agitated them a bit. I just wanted to see what their deal was because I saw a few of them over here.
TLDR they are basically like r/thedonald, libertarian types. Use slurs as a badge of honor. Angry, sad people. Fully in favor of defederation. But I get that it’s early days, and defederation is a sensitive topic. I just don’t see any path to that server becoming something of value that I’d want to interact with.
I dont see why defederation is seen as a sensitive topic.
Its a great feature, designed for specifically this purpose.
Over time people will migrate between instances and land where they fit. Some people want to be abrasive cunts, and they will land with the other abrasive cunts. Thats great, they have an instance they can do what they want on.
For the rest of us though, we dont want to see their bad faith articles and abrasiveness on our feeds. No one is being limited in their speech, but they might be limited in their reach. If they want to expand their reach, they can join a more broadly federated instance and ditch the bad faith arguments and abrasiveness.
Its the kids table at the dinner party. You can join the adults table if you behave in a way that is suitable for the adults, if not go back and play with the kids and everyone is happy.
The example that introduced me to federation was like an instance getting overrun with Nazis, and everyone deciding to just cut that instance loose; let it float alone as “the Nazi instance” that nobody has to interact with.
I thought that stuff like bad actors and assholes was one of the main reasons for the idea of federation, really surprised how many people thought differently
I think people would be surprised at the amount of instances that have already been broadly defederated.
Its just that the beehaw defederation is the first “big” incident since broader adoption, and thats for very understandable reasons with a roadmap to refederation already in place.
The only people who get angry about an instance being defederated are the types who want to act in bad faith. They know if they join the instance they got defederated from they will be banned if they spruik the shit that got the instance defederated in the first place, so they are angry that no one wants to listen to their shit.
It sucks for legitimate users that get caught up, but if youre a good user willing to participate in good faith, just join another instance and carry on.
In Beehaw’s case especially I saw a lot of people who came off more that they took being defederated personally or that they felt entitled to Beehaw’s communities than anything
like I still can’t understand why people found it so abhorrent that Beehaw temporarily defederated; they literally stated why and explicitly stated that it’s probably not permanent
like they made it clear, people just didn’t bother to read for some reason
I respect beehaw’s ability to defederate and their decisions to do with their community as they please. I don’t agree with their actions and I don’t think they did the right thing. But that’s why I did not and will not sign up on beehaw.
But if people start defederating each other over slight disagreements? I think that’s bad for the idea of federation in general.
My perspective isn’t so much that I’d like to act in bad faith, but rather that I do not wish for others to dictate who I may speak to or what beliefs I may hold. It’s one thing to have a standard of civility, respect, and polite discourse and to avoid those who do not act as such. It’s another to ban/censor/close off people over a disagreement of perspective.
Defederation is top-level admins building a wall, forcing people to either have two accounts to interact with both groups, or to move and find somewhere that isn’t defederated. If you don’t want to see certain content or talk to someone, why not just block them? why block for everyone? I don’t get that view. I avoid signing up on instances like beehaw because I know they’re quick to defederate. if you want that sorta thing, why not go join them?
Or perhaps you just didn’t see those who don’t bother engaging in conflict?
I fully understand why you don’t expect to find content there in the future, but is that a good argument to deny access to those who already have?
Exploding heads have gotten subscribers from here as well. There’s an extensive backlog of topics some people find quite important - even if others don’t.
I don’t have a problem with you personally. You’ve been fairly reasonable in our interactions. But the people on your server are not great. Maybe you should make an account here.
I don’t care for them myself, but unless they’re causing problems outside for everyone else, why defederate?
If there are communities you don’t want to see, you can block them as they appear.
The argument being that if they aren’t blocked at an instance-level, due to how the federation works, those comments could very easily spill over into these threads. Those that do want to participate in good faith would need to create an account with an instance that is federated.
How do you block them? Not a feature on kbin yet as far as I know.
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If you’d like to block them here on kbin, go to to their domain page:
https://kbin.social/d/exploding-heads.com
and then click the “cancel” circle/crossout button over in the sidebar next to “subscribe”. That’ll block the entire domain.
Radicalisation starts with people “just asking questions” or “just pointing out an issue with X without having anything against them”, that’s enough to hook some people that will go way down the rabbit hole.
In the screenshot you see exactly what I’m talking about, “I’m not racist, but I can point out issues with the BLM movement”. Alright they just opened the door to people that are a bit more radical to try and find out where the tolerance ends and to others to start looking for answers with a biased premise in mind.
I invite you to watch this video (and the whole series really) that covers all of that:
I mean, there are indeed issues with the BLM movement. And this “possibly leading to radicalization” is much better than lack of critique.
Say, cultural appropriation is suddenly fine when it’s black people doing it. (Talking about Cleopatra in that show, the show itself is not important, just that the “politically correct” approach to it differs.)
Or people who think that BLM is more important than actual ethnic cleansing happening in parts of the planet far away from BLM.
Of course, these issues are inherited from general ignorance and indifference to suffering of others combined with trends of virtue signaling. Same happens in many areas not connected to racism.
…
Nope.
I don’t think this is a satisfactory answer.
Anyway, what I said can be shortened to “everybody who is looking sees you as a hypocrite when you are doing this kind of activism which costs nothing”.
You were talking to people not even from that instance. You people need to learn how federation works
I’ve already acknowledged that multiple times.
Your comment is the perfect example of why defederation is even being considered. You’re a sad, confused person who is angry at the world and takes it out on other people. One look at your comment history makes that clear.
We’re trying to build an alternative to reddit and it’s going to be really hard to do that if we have to fucking drag people like you along with us. You seem to enjoy making other people miserable.
If you genuinely think libertarians are equivalent to r/thedonald posters, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Which is why defederating based on politics is stupid.
I never said they were equivalent. One of the most popular posts on the server is about creating an index of libertarian/right-leaning instances.
https://exploding-heads.com/post/92733
One of the most prominent users (4 month acount!) is named maga_force.
What term would you use to describe their users?
@imaqtpie “What term would you use to describe their users?”
Nazis, probably.I never said they were equivalent.
Comma separation implies a list of traits (users are both r/thedonald users and libertarian) whereas or/and would imply that libertarians and r/thedonald users both exist in the instance
What term would you use to describe their users?
Conservative/MAGA fits the majority of the content a lot better
Comma separation implies a list of traits (users are both r/thedonald users and libertarian) whereas or/and would imply that libertarians and r/thedonald users both exist in the instance
Lol fair enough, thats true.
I honestly thought libertarian was the more flattering descriptor, but sure we can go with Conservative/MAGA
I honestly thought libertarian was the more flattering descriptor
Yeah, so do they - that’s why they try to co-opt the term lol
Ok word. Yeah libertarians usually have some kind of rationale and principles while MAGA people are just walking memes that regurgitate spam.
Honestly most self-described right-libertarians are really differing levels of feudalists. With the uber-feudalists being the “anarcho-capitalists”. Which is the dumbest term ever but that’s not the point.
So I’m always very very suspicious of someone who says they are a libertarian…
Most people who think they are “libertarians” have no clue what they are talking about.
Proudly planting the libertarian flag on top of a few pet peeves.
Then watch them cry foul whenever libertarianism strikes in any of the soft spots they don’t want touched, or don’t understand through lazy ignorance. An extreme cartoonish (yet sadly real) example being something like “Keep your dirty government hands off my Medicare”.
It is as disappointing to see MAGA-types try to co-opt “libertarian” for optics as it is to see the general populace so lacking in critical thinking as to take the bait hook, line, and sinker.
The term had been coopted by feudalists much before that. The term originally referred to anarcho-socialists as opposed to the growing “authoritarian” socialist trend. I put authoritarian in quotes, because that term has also completely lost its meaning.
Anarcho-communists represent.
That place is gross. They have a parent community that is just trans hate. I can’t imagine spending so much energy being a hateful idiot.
Nazi instances will proliferate and it benefits nobody else to stay in federation with them. It makes the whole fediverse less usable and more dangerous. And whether you like it or not it sends a message to people who are targeted by them that they are not truly welcome here, regardless of whatever moderation rules are espoused.
And in North America, as in many places, these people are acting as a propaganda arm for a literal violent terror movement. Sometimes under a fig leaf of ”irony” but it makes no material difference whether they’re chuckling when they spew shit to me
Thank you for the voice of reason. I have seen so many “but I don’t want an echo chamber” and “just block them bro”. Like thats not the point of this. It’s to deplatform them.
You keep on trying to deplatform Christian soccer moms and everyone is gonna go back to reddit.
Moderates: TheDonald@exploding-heads.com
best sub
How many Christian Soccer Moms do you think used reddit in the first place? How many do you think are on Lemmy?
millions. Prove me wrong.
That’s impossible, because all Soccer Moms on reddit are vampires, and vampires can’t be Christian by definition.
Prove my logic wrong.
Please post sources and no racism is allowed here. I’m friends with your mom.
I’m also shagging this guys mom
I’m new to the fediverse and im kinda happy that its so easy to defederate from the more over the top instances. I’m in favor of closing the door on those psychos too.
They are just saying whatever to get a rise out of people like 4chan. The goal is chaos they want everyone to react and ban instances.
They don’t magically go away when they are defederated. They will sign up to other open instances and plan their raids from the defederated one which we will have no visibility of. Then they can go from instance to instance causing chaos and breaking up the network as each one defederates.
Then you are back at square one where it is a user problem.
I’m not supporting this particular instance but its a problem that needs to be considered and defederation is a short term fix but will result it bigger problems down the line.
The blueprint is there to kill the network. Make a load of accounts, spam dumb shit until you are defederated… Rinse and repeat.
The blueprint is there to kill the network. Make a load of accounts, spam down shit until you are defederated… Rinse and repeat.
I think the responsibility lies on the owners of each instance to manage trolls on their instance. If they moderate responsibly and shut down the Nazis and trolls, nobody will defederate them. If they don’t moderate effectively and their instance turns into a cesspool, they’ll get defederated by everybody except other trolls.
That’s the whole point of the fediverse. You run your instance, and based on what users on your instance do, other instances decide whether or not to federate with it. And if that results in multiple federated networks that don’t federate with one another, that’s fine too. You can’t keep fascists or tankies from downloading server software and setting up an online forum. But you can keep them out of yours.
Not a lot of folks are that vindictive and dedicated to the cause, to make that an issue, I don’t think.
Evidence?
I mean trolls in general, I’m not calling for defederation. I’m trying to point out it won’t solve their problem. I’m playing devils advocate and saying they’re will always be something someone finds offensive and to block problematic individuals not the whole instance.
I want names and links
I didn’t visit the site, i said I’m speaking in a general sense about trolls.
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Then sh.itjust.works should probably remove their instance-wide rules.
Not the prettiest instance, but have they caused any real trouble outside of their own instance? Not much of a fediverse if we just defederate from instances that lean different politically. Especially seems like a weird move to go defederating on other instances this early given y’know, that we just got defederated from beehaw because of one misbehaved asshole.
Given that no bigotry is one of the stated rules of this instance and that bigotry is pretty rampant over on that instance I think it would be appropriate to disassociate with them.
Seems like something you should block individual users over rather than a whole instance
If the instance lets bigots participate then the problem is with the instance itself.
Nice whataboutism you got there, care to come up with an actual argument instead of trying to deviate the discussion?
So only certain bigots count, got it.
Now you’re putting words in my mouth as well?
You’re totally unable to stay on topic, aren’t you?
Bigotry is a matter of personal taste. I found some posts from trans subs talking about cis white men killing people, but I didn’t try to censor them because I’m an adult and possess the ability to ignore them.
I’m not saying we should immediately defederate, but the reason I originally went to check them out was partially because of this comment and the reply from dick@exploding-heads.com
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/207742
When he made that reply, it got rapidly upvoted to +7, while my comment was also sitting at about +7. This morning, several hours later, when a bunch of actual sh.itjust.works users woke up and read the thread, the ratio of votes changed in my favor.
I fear that we are going to deal with a significant level of brigading from that instance, and unlike reddit we don’t really have any tools to combat that.
They also had a good laugh about the troll who posted here about getting us defederated by beehaw. They really don’t like beehaw, or gay people in general.
It’s whatever but we are already defederated with lemmygrad.ml and I feel like this stuff is on that same tier.
this is an interesting post-reddit effect, we have people of all different types and motives seeking new places.
A lot of people seem to think this is an all out battle between a new community and reddit. Like we have to beat them or something. The situation with reddit is not a win-lose, reddit would never go dark overnight. A lot of users are just over reddit and moving on. I personally don’t care about lemmy becoming the next reddit nor do I really care what happens to them.
A big difference to me with this migration is the instances seem to attract like minds. This is going to be a very interesting event to watch how the fediverse grows and changes.
I personally do see this as a war against reddit and the corporate internet. But we are just marshaling the troops, we aren’t about to march into battle.
I think this migration is different for two reasons.
Firstly, because the main users who were alienated were the mods, app devs, and long time redditors. The composition of the exodus is infinitely superior to the voat migration for example.
Secondly, because the platform of Lemmy and the fediverse provides actual value due to the ability to federate. You can’t get the combination of access and protection that this platform might eventually provide on regular social media.
I had a look through their hot-page and couldn’t find anything on the level of lemmygrad. Do you have any examples?
https://exploding-heads.com/post/100772
Many of the trolls on that thread aren’t actually from that server, but they clearly reside in the same dark corner of the internet. But yeah its not really as bad as I thought in terms of needing to defederate, I thought they had over 1k users acting like that but I guess I just replied to the wrong person because the server is mostly dead.
But I have to say, I’ve never encountered people with such a burning hatred of redditors. Again, it’s whatever but I wouldn’t be bothered if we did defederate.
Your continuous misrepresentation of Exploding Heads is depressing. Burning hatred for redditors? Where do most of the anti-reddit posts on Exploding Heads originate from? Mostly from the new instances. You say dark corners of the internet, but we’re digital neighbors.
If you check the timestamps on that thread you linked you’ll see the non-EH people attached themselves to my comment from god knows where. It was unwanted, unsolicited, I’ve never seen them before and they used it as an example to show how a lemmy thread works. I blocked most of them, that’s why you see my engagement disappear.
That’s the example you use.
I was here years before you guys. I’ve seen the lemmyverse struggle. I have advocated so hard for openness, inclusiveness and communication through interconnectivity - all the while saying that people should block what they don’t like or find offensive.
I find this whole thread symbolic of the culture you all on average have brought with you. Prejudice, misrepresentation, moral reprisals… I had it enough conflict, I know Exploding Heads won’t block you and I know I can’t be bothered to individually block thousands and thousands of users accusing me of the most horrible things, like being a Nazi.
At least you guys won’t have to block two known prolific shitposters maybe having opinions other than yourselves, mostly in a space you’d have to seek out.
By being on the sh.itjust.works you are personally as responsible for this as the average exploding-head user is responsible for a few of our idiots posting on the internet. I’m leaving lemmy until full instance block is available for individual users so I won’t ever have to interact with the type of average user I’ve seen on sh.itjust.works. Or at least in this thread.
You all drove me away from this platform. At least I have the decency not to seriously argue that you all should be disconnected from other instances.
I’m sorry.
I now recognize that the thread I commented on was full of people that were trolling you just as much as they were trolling me.
But it’s not my fault either, I commented on your server once and got fucking dogpiled by a bunch of creeps. I didn’t even make this post about defederation, I just responded and gave my honest experience and opinions.
I acknowledge I was mistaken in some of the things I said about your server. But you never came out and explained who you guys are and why you’re here. I still have no idea why you have 1.2k users who are mostly inactive, or when or why the server was created.
I feel bad and I hope you reconsider, but I haven’t treated you poorly at all, so don’t go around saying I drove you off the platform. You’re welcome to create an account here and promote openness and inclusiveness through interconnectivity.
That is the only post with those people on it. You specifically found where other’s are trolling exploding-heads and then trying to get exploding-heads defederated. You are being manipulated.
other’s
Nice
I think we should stay federated with them. They haven’t said anything wrong or bad yet.
What can I say about brigading other than Exploding Heads having to turn off downvotes for the first time ever due to silent brigading?
How’s our federation affecting your instance?
We are bigger than you so you can’t really affect us too much. But all I can say is I never downvoted anybody on your instance, I only made comments
If you are bigger than us (by a factor of 100?) and we can’t really affect you much, is the fear of substantial downvote brigading perhaps a bit unnecessary?
Don’t feel like I’m accusing you of brigading, you seem like the type of person who’d rather have a discussion than just anonymously downvote.
If anything, based on your previous statement about seeking out a different community to rile them up, trolling would be more correct.
I didn’t seek them out to rile them up, that’s just what ended up happening.
Yeah it’s probably a bit unnecessary, but even if the brigading doesn’t overly affect the community, it’s annoying when people come in to post divisive shit and it gets upvoted to +7 before anyone here notices.
And then when I go over there I get people coming out of the woodwork to hurl slurs at me. I know those aren’t necessarily people from your server, but they are part of that whole scene, so I can’t just ignore that kind of stuff.
Also by my count you’ve got 1.2k users and we are closing in on 5k. So not bigger by a factor of 100
1.2k registered users on one of the oldest Lemmy instances.
We had 20 active users today, you had 640. I retract my guesstimate, my argument is that you’re only bigger by a factor of 32.
And is it impossible that some of the users from your instance upvoted something they subscribe to, so it must be brigading?
But let’s not discuss like we disagree. You all have convinced me to support defederation.
Yeah I suspected that was the case, but you didn’t make it super clear that most of your users were afk. You should have put that in the headline.
What was the reason that instance was created and how long ago? I really don’t know anything about Lemmy history before I joined.
Well for starters, your instance users are pretty much the only ones popping in and complaining that we’re defederated from lemmygrad, despite it not affecting you at all.
Y’know, since you’re on a different instance and all.
Attempting to exert influence on a different instance seems kinda like the federation attempting to affect this instance, no?
Being openly bigoted isn’t a “political leaning” though, and it’s against lemmy.world’s code of conduct as stated on the sidebar link: https://mastodon.world/about
Provide a friendly, safe, and welcoming environment for everyone regardless of gender identity or expression, sexual orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, age, religion, nationality, political affiliation, or other similar characteristic.
No one is saying let’s ban conservatives. This discussion is about defederating an instance that seems to be crawling with alt-right trolls. I don’t understand why that would be a problem.
Like I’d hope that we wouldn’t follow in Reddit’s footsteps of tolerating alt-right bigotry
Defederating isn’t like being fucking censored or whatever; it’s people deciding that they don’t want to be around you
Basically near-every instance did this for Lemmygrad with zero complaint, so it’s fucking weird that there are so many people complaining now when it comes to an instance teeming with alt-right bigotry
Reddit didn’t tolerate alt-right bigotry. What are you on about?
And yes, defederating is censorship. I had a burggit account because I liked the name, but then once they got defederated from everything, I needed to make a new account. That’s censorship.
Lemmygrad, Exploding-Head and Beehaw are all safe-spaces and echo-chambers. They won’t wander outside their zone, which they haven’t. Find it hilarious you’re so huffy about the alt-right, but silent about multiple mods enabling pro-communist content.
So you’re pro echo-chamber? You also completely disregarded my point about having to make a new account.
No, needing to make a new account is not censorship, get over yourself.
How is having to make a new account in an entirely separate instance not censorship?
Yes it did, until media brought attention to it, then they banned The Donald and Metacanada and these users just joined other subs where they spewed their poison with the admin’s blessing in the cases where mods from subs that got banned were also modding other subs that didn’t (metacanada mods also modding Canada).
And all of the tankie subreddits were never touched despite having the same content.
The whole reason lemmygrad.ml (and hexbear) got big is literally because their subreddits got banned
Really? What subs?
Almost like tankie subreddits weren’t gaming the Reddit vote system to push literal propaganda to the front page for years or something
Propaganda is the front page, my dude. Won’t deny T_D was shitty, fuck em, they deserved the ban-hammer for having an echo-chamber.
Whataboutism, try again in a discussion about tankies.
Whataboutism is perfectly valid.
Get your American politics out of your head when talking about global issues. Just makes you look ignorant.
how about that whole span of time that r/the_donald was a subreddit lmao
edit: it’s not censorship if you can easily move to another instance with little difficulty and just continue from there, with most of the same communities even
people like you just think someone telling them that they don’t want to hear you is the same as being suppressed
I can tell you the exact same thing. Keep the attacks to yourself.
Agree. I think blocking should be done on an individual basis unless it truly becomes a problem for most users and a turn-off for new users
Defederation should be the LAST and FINAL option. From what I understand, this is a small instance that isn’t causing much trouble outside of their instance. Block them on your own! I’m on lemmy.world, but personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post. I don’t think we should start goimg around defederating communities that we disagree with, even though their opinions are shit, vile, offensive, and disgusting. Leave it up and block them on your own.
I think given their hateful content it is irresponsible to essentially platform their content by remaining federated. Do you really feel the need to stay up to date on the latest transphobic meme and covid conspiracy theories?
I don’t feel a need to stay up to date, no. But reading about what those idiots think doesn’t hurt my ego or ruin my day. I just like to have an idea of what the “enemy” is thinking. I don’t want to live in an echo chamber. The sub isn’t even THAT bad compared to what I was expecting. They’ve got some gross posts, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not NEARLY bad enough to warrant defederating. Most of the posted content is moderate-right. Defederating is silly in this case.
Removing those that wish people were dead for existing doesn’t create an echo chamber.
If they have users calling for violence and those users are not being banned that is one thing. If they have odious opinions on trans healthcare that’s completely different.
De-federation should be used for instances that promote literal violence. Blocking should be used on communities and posters who have opinions that you can’t stand.
We get it, you’re straight.
Is it not a much more powerful message if the fediverse as a whole down votes the stuff into oblivion. If they are isolated it becomes an us vs them game with them playing the victim.
When they see that by and large they are ignored and downvoted they might grow up and realize they are acting like dicks.
It’s not a matter of the opinions being unpopular and thus toothless. By federating with them we are giving them a larger platform to get their message out to those who will believe it.
You don’t see their communities unless you subscribe. If their users are posting in our communities and breaking the rules of the communities then their posts will be deleted and the users banned.
There are moderation options other than de-federation. De-federation is an option of last resort to protect the greater community from violence, abuse and crime. De-federation is not a tool for sending a political message.
You can personally block that entire server and you will never see anything from them.
You see their shit if you sort by new. Are you like a kbin user? Maybe shit works differently for you.
My username shows @Difficult_Bit_1339 to you, so we’re on the same instance. If it had @lemmy.world then I would be a user on the lemmy.world instance.
If you choose ‘All’ instead of ‘Local’ or ‘Subscribed’ then you see everything that exists, yes. I wouldn’t recommend that since it is an incredibly spammy experience. That being said, you can block any community like so:
Tbh that sounds like how people are pushed into extremism. When an open dialog is kept, there is at least a chance a thought provoking discussion would change a mind, even if it’s just one mind. I don’t really know, I don’t mind defederating in this instance ftmp, nothing of value for me there so whatever.
I guess these ppl are already extremists, so 🤷
I agree with this. Isolating communities that have odious beliefs only lead to those beliefs being echoed and intensified in their small spaces, and hence become more extreme over time. It’s not “nipping the issue in the bud” like many people seem to think it is, it’s the complete opposite. Past a certain line we definitely should cut ties, but I guess it’s debatable where that line should be drawn.
I think that, in these instances, there is a sort of nuance and humanness that is kinda glossed over.
Its not really that hard to imagine ending up like that. Im not apologizing for them, I’m just saying that we are in a constant fight with our own biology and alot of stuff depends on circumstance.
What these people, apparently, need is some lsd or smth cause they are all stuck in their heads. They hate themselves. It’s all projection and protection of something they don’t even understand.
Should we just let them wallow in their own shit? What is our duty to them, if any? I’m not really sure tbh. But I know pretending that it’s not real ain’t gonna fix shit.
They know they’re acting like dicks, they’re openly proud and revel in it and it’s a core, fundamental part of who they are. Hateful bigots such as them don’t have any interest in changing who they are or improving their behaviour, they will just shift the goalposts and double down every time they are challenged. It’s been proven time and time again that they are not looking to be reasonable.
100%
I don’t like how r/conservative handles their moderation but I don’t think their subreddit should be nuked.
But things like Men Going Their Own Way, and The Donald or any other subreddits promoting violence and direct hate deserve removal (or de-federation). De-federation should be used as a tool of last resort. For places who are turning to actual violence or outright hatred.
I cannot stress how strongly I disagree with exploding-head’s stance on Trans rights and racism but if someone has an odious opinion on gender affirming care or trans athletes then they should be met by people who counter their ideas. Simply cutting them off into isolation provides zero chance of changing their minds.
I understand that some people have no interest in debating people who disagree with them, and that is entirely ok. Block any community or poster that you find offensive but defederation is not something that should be used regularly.
Yes exactly. Just like there are idiots in real life, we ignore them and move on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if we disagree with it. Sure people can spout some nonsense devoid of facts we can down vote if thats the case .
You might disagree with someone on politics but like the same sports team for example. There are humans on either side so like in real life we can get along and don’t need to agree on everything.
If something is illegal or its hate speech or something like that then report and block the user and the content.
If you don’t like a community you can block it but if we shut off instances all of the time I can guarantee you the fediverse will just turn into isolated echo chambers and we’ll all be forced back to corporate walled gardens.
If we can coexist in real life we can coexist here.
We need our views challenged to grow. Being corrected is a good thing thats how we learn. Life is short at the end of the day let’s not try to take it too serious.
❤️
I don’t see why we need to coexist with people who are against coexistence with certain groups of people.
Sounds like you are against coexisting with conservatives
Lol touch grass
eat ass
Okay, I’ve finished eating ass.
Have you gone outside yet?
Yes
Sounds like you would like lemmygrad.
Anarchist, but hey you tried…
Then you should feel at home with a anarcho capitalist instance like exploding-heads
Let me ask you this … Anarchist. Do you think what Xi Jing Ping is doing to the Muslims in China is bad or are you a Holocaust denying Wumao?
holy shit, how do I even begin to explain that you can’t just “ignore” Nazis and racists and transphobes and letting them keep their platform
you do understand that they hurt real fucking people, right???
I agree all the way.
“personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post”
The shit they post is the gateway to worse things for some. You’re still free to go check what’s going on over there, it doesn’t mean they should have access to our space.
gateway to worse things for some
so you’re basically saying “there’s nothing wrong with this, but let’s ban it anyway because it may be a little wrong in the future”?
Where did I say there’s nothing wrong with what they say?
In the OP you’ve got the perfect example: “I’m not racist but I can point to BLM and criticize it…” that’s exactly how you plant the seed that leads some people to racism, with that “but”.
I’ll share it again and again: https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
Communities keep deciding not to react to alt-right users until it’s too late to get rid of them.
… are you saying you can’t criticize BLM?
also that yt link lol
i probably already watched it but will again cuz i remember liking it.
upon rewatching a few minutes of it, i can see there’s a few fallacies here and there but doens’t mean it’s wrong.
final edit: wow does he make a shitfuckton of assumptions to just say “if we allow jordan peterson to have a youtube channel we’re killing poor black people”
No, I’m saying that it’s exactly the way the alt-right opens doors to more extreme opinions. “I don’t think X but…”. They keep moving the window of what is and isn’t acceptable this way.
Let them participate here and that’s exactly what they’ll keep doing until the problem is too major to control because they’ve taken over (see /r/Canada even before /r/metacanada was banned) or a mod puts their big pants on and say enough is enough and bans their instance, but then you’re still stuck with all the users that got converted.
I see. Maybe I’m biased because the very few times I’ve seen them posting here I found them to be pretty funny and liked their presence. Their tactless way of having fun is somewhat endearing in a sense. I’m their polar opposite in terms of political ideology and completely disagree with all of their political points but that doesn’t make it not fun to see them hopping around being little nodes of comedic angst.
It’s already started:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/287275
Extremists are very good at “just making jokes” and “just asking questions” and maybe to you that’s what they’re doing, but doing the joke opens the door to “just talk about X for real though” and suddenly people are arguing and you’ll have some regular people that will start believing there might be some truth to what the extremists are saying and the spiral begins. They might never reach the deep end, they’ll take what they’re open to. Someone single and insecure might just adhere to the incel stuff and not the racism, someone who just lost their job when a black person got to keep theirs might adhere to the racism but not to the anti-women stuff…
also the long post on the op is incompatible with my adhd and i have been unable to read it the multiple times i’ve opened it lol. wallatext
It’s always funny as, non American, to read about this naive anti- censorship slogans. Hateful political groups never stay in their places and play nice everywhere else. They brigade and harass every fucking time. There’s a reason why every place without moderation turns into a absolute toxic cesspit.
Voat failed quickly because of the “no censorship” implemented which allowed garbage to congregate. Of course people left because it was nothing but shit.
Lemmy needs to take out this trash.
voat would have failed regardless. Their servers couldn’t handle the load when the Exodus went there.
you
you get it
all of this “marketplace of ideas” bullshit predicates on the alt-right and fascists cooperating and playing fair, when they historically have always taken advantage of any chance they’re given and then mocking those who wanted to give them a chance
like it’s 2023, I’d hoped that we’d have realized why giving the alt-right and fascists a seat at the table never fucking works out for anyone other than the alt-right and fascists
“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.” -Karl Popper
They do have a lot of moderation though. Did you even research it?
deleted by creator
These guys fucking suck, no doubt, but I really prefer that we put the impetus on users to block communities they don’t like rather than pursue total defederation
I mean we banned lemmygrad and bigotry is against our instance rules.
We banned lemmygrad? I’m not a fan of that either tbh
Tankies can get fucked too. Harmful ideas should not be platformed
Harmful ideas should not be platformed
I think that this is a harmful idea and the moderation team should ban you for it.
See how that can get out of hand? Who gets to decide what is a harmful idea?
I certainly wouldn’t trust you to do it. Would you trust me to do it?
I think this is an incomprehensible idea and the moderation team should ban you for it. It’d be funny. Difficult_Bit_1339 makes the worst argument ever, asked to leave sh.itjust.works
Now you get it.
People being banned for their ideas is a dumb idea because the person who gets to decide what a dumb idea is is often an idiot and will make bad decisions.
You either ban Nazis and similar assholes or your community will be overrun by them, causing the good people to leave.
Prime example: Twitter right now.
The “muh free speech” “argument” doesn’t hold in light of the fact, that this is a privately owned and operated platform at the full discretion of the admins. Free speech is a right to defend people from the government, not to enable every asshole to spew their shit into everyone’s feed.
Being tolerant without limits not a good way to handle right wing trolls. Trusting right wing trolls to moderate themselves is, imo, not a route to success.
This comic, in my view, does a passable job of summarising the idea of the paradox of tolerance.
I support this. Keep Nazis out of my feed.
Hey kbin users if you want to block this domain just go to https://kbin.social/d/exploding-heads.com and block that domain there.
We should absolutely not turn to defederation as a first action. You know how traditional social media bans opinions that are not acceptable according to themselves?
We must be better than that. It creates a ridiculous otherwise where people think everyone agrees with them and they are never challanged in how they think about things.
I think we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it’s within the rules, meaning people must be polite, not hateful, not breaking the law etc.
Read up on the Paradox of Tolerance, please. “We must be better than them” is a call for total tolerance, which will inevitably lead to the disappearance of tolerance, and that cannot be allowed to happen. It is simply impossible to have a community where transphobes and trans people coexist happily together, and I’ll choose the side that’s not trying to hurt others (trans people, in case that wasn’t clear) every day.
Everyone censorship-enjoyer loves talking about the Paradox of Tolerance. Here’s the part Popper said that they like to gloss over:
I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.
Nobody’s talking about censorship. Anybody who wants to see that kind of stuff can still just go to the defederated instance without any problem, and nobody is arguing for that possibility to be taken away.
Also, no, I’m not glossing over that part. Instead, you seem to be glossing over this part of your own quote:
as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion
In an age where transphobic legislation is passed left and right at an alarming rate, you can not tell me in good consciousness that transphobia and similar intolerant ideologies are actually successfully being kept in check by public opinion, and rational argument does jack shit, as evidenced by, well, the whole of public discourse about the topic apparently not having any bearing on said legislation.
But certainly the proposed defederation isn’t the same as suppressing utterance, considering there would remain a publicly accessible instance for that speech. This would be closer to keeping in check by public opinion, since it’s the action of exterior social forces.
Thats an interesting link, thats for sharing it.
I mean sure, I dont have a lot of faith in humanity in general. It seems the majority is unable to act in a mature way, so maybe you and the link is correct.
But I wish we would grow up as a species. We are acting like monkeys.
No, we are acting like humans. But close enough ;-)
social media bans opinions
Hate is not an opinion
How is it not? It may be an opinion stemming from a feeling but it’s still an opinion isn’t it?
it breaks the social contract of tolerance and seeks to end discourse by killing the participants when escalated to its final form. hate groups are no more participants in discourse than fire is an architectural style for building a house.
we don’t have to take seriously the folks that suggest “let’s set it on fire” when discussing whether we want to build a victorian or modern style home because they are not serious people and their poor ideas have been proven idiotic too many times to count.
I don’t disagree with any of that.
However, my comment is about the definition of an opinion, and I still haven’t gotten an explanation why it’s not one.
Definitionally is
You say we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it is within the rules and yet this instances most active communities post anti Trans hate and covid conspiracy shit. Surely this goes against our instances rule of no bigotry. Also paradox of tolerance, etc.
and if it were posted in other instances i would hope itd get dealt with appropriately
them posting it on their own instance is their business, scummy as it is
And so it is permitted to exist but be quarantined in defed.
Let’s wait for per-user instance filters to be implemented, then everyone can block instances to taste. As long as their users don’t cause trouble in our communities, there’s no need for our instance to act as a moral guardians and decide what our users can and cannot see. Defederation is a nuclear option that should only be done if their instance is disrupting our instance’s operation (spamming and breaking rules while in our communities).
I like that sh.itjust.works currently federates with almost everyone, and I can see a big part of the fediverse from here. It would suck having to visit multiple instance to see the whole fediverse.
Exploding Heads have between 40-60 active users, you probably noticed two posters you find disagreeable.
Have you considered blocking the users or communities you find offensive?
I second this.
If nothing else, this should count as a wakeup call to the exploding-heads admins, that if these are just outlier users they should probably be reigned in. If there is pressure to defed now, it will only increase if nothing changes. If the instance won’t manage its users, that’s precisely why they will get defederated.
yeah, like if anything else support it because actual talk of defederation might get the admins to get their house in order
and if not, then nobody’s gonna miss an alt-right haven anyway
If the platform itself allows these users to participate then the platform is also an issue.
If you hang out with racists and don’t argue against them then you’re racist too.
Lemmy or Jeroba just ate my comment so let me try again.
I didn’t initially want to join here, but the instance I did want to join (which is defederated with Lemmygrad, Burggit, and Exploding Heads and I think that’s a fantastic defed list) is having significant growing pains at the moment, while shit just works here. I ran across my first Exploding Heads post in All and it was gross, and it seems like the tools available to me as a user will leave me playing whack a mole to get rid of all of it which I’m not looking forward to. Right now I’m planning on moving to that other instance in a few weeks once they get everything sorted out, but if Burggit and Exploding Heads are defederated here and the issues with Beehaw are sorted out (which I’m optimistic that they will be), I’m open to staying here, it’s certainly the easiest option for me given the lack of account migration options, and the perks of being in a larger instance (the community search feature in Jeroba has worked well for me and I think it’s due to the large user base here). I’m extremely impressed with how The Dude is handling the scaling issues and his communication with Beehaw right now, also I generally like Canadians and green energy, lol.
