Paradox of tolerance doesn’t include collective punishment, mate. Especially considering the .world and .ml instances are the largest ones, to the point where they’re listed on the Wiki article for Lemmy.
Just imagine - you seeing that Reddit is going to shit, wanting to change to something better, looking up Lemmy, seeing that one of these two instances being the largest, joining, and immediately being called a Nazi, or some such bullshit by an elitist prick.
You know we’re talking about ICE, right? the literal evil paramilitary squad of a crumbling empire. The ones who kidnap children, the ones who break into homes and disappear people.
I could understand your being pissed off if it was some fucker getting cancelled for something unimportant.
But people died, people died. This ain’t the same thing.
And no, it literally does. You don’t want to turn into a nazi bar, you don’t let Nazis in. If the owners let Nazis in, you don’t go to the bar and you tell every other fucker to do the same.
No, we’re talking about blocking an instance because it “accepted” an ICE account.
the literal evil paramilitary squad of a crumbling empire. The ones who kidnap children, the ones who break into homes and disappear people.
I know full well who they are. But they’re still - like it or not - a government organisation. There should be tools to help moderation in such situations. Like, if you have your average right-wing nutjob lying non-stop, flag the account, make it only publish posts after a review, or something.
I could understand your being pissed off if it was some fucker getting cancelled for something unimportant.
But people died, people died. This ain’t the same thing.
OK, so what do you propose? Say, Johnny Regular signs up in .blahaj.zone. Then goes insane and starts a mass shooting, killing a hundred people.
Do we blow up the instance, blacklist everybody on it because “people died” and “nobody wants to be the instance with ICE Johnny Regular on it”?
And no, it literally does. You don’t want to turn into a nazi bar, you don’t let Nazis in. If the owners let Nazis in, you don’t go to the bar and you tell every other fucker to do the same.
So add a mechanism to review accounts before they’re created, especially for gov users, instead of nuking an instance because one got let in.
Well I guess that’s the problem then, I assumed you were arguing against systemwide ban of instances that intentionally open the door for them.
Yeah of course, if it’s an ICE account that just joins is their own accord, let that instance deal with it, not a problem. I think it’s stupid for anyone to argue to ban the instance for something outside their control.
But if they do as bsky.social main instance did; open the door, officially recognise them, and don’t kick/ban, then the instance is bad for the ecosystem and should be treated like the virus it is. That’s when to defederate it.
Again: saying that you should ban/isolate an instance for allowing an official government entity because you don’t agree with the government’s policies is just insanity.
Just imagine having to ban any and all instances that allow official accounts of ICE, any Chinese gov entities, anything from Saudi Arabia or the Emirates, anything from India, anything from Israel, anything from Venezuela, anything from russia…
And then you have situations like in Ukraine - imagine having Fediverse since 2010. You have an official UA Ministry of Internal Affairs account, all is good. Then the Maidan Protests happen, over 100 people are shot dead by Berkut (equivalent of US SWAT)… so now you have to ban the account? Ban the instance, even! But then the people of Ukraine prevail, Yanukovych runs to russia, Berkut forces dissolve and disappear into the wind… so you can now un-ban the instance!
It’s a mess, mate! It’s childish and it undermines any hope for any fediverse services to ever be considered an alternative to established social media sites, because - if nothing else - no sane journalist/reporter/researcher would ever commit to supporting a product where their source of information may get randomly removed because an account on an instance is connected to something heinous.
And you didn’t answer my question earlier, so I’m going to post it again:
OK, so what do you propose? Say, Johnny Regular signs up in .blahaj.zone. Then goes insane and starts a mass shooting, killing a hundred people.
Do we blow up the instance, blacklist everybody on it because “people died” and “nobody wants to be the instance with ICE Johnny Regular on it”?
Paradox of tolerance doesn’t include collective punishment, mate. Especially considering the
.worldand.mlinstances are the largest ones, to the point where they’re listed on the Wiki article for Lemmy.Just imagine - you seeing that Reddit is going to shit, wanting to change to something better, looking up Lemmy, seeing that one of these two instances being the largest, joining, and immediately being called a Nazi, or some such bullshit by an elitist prick.
You know we’re talking about ICE, right? the literal evil paramilitary squad of a crumbling empire. The ones who kidnap children, the ones who break into homes and disappear people.
I could understand your being pissed off if it was some fucker getting cancelled for something unimportant.
But people died, people died. This ain’t the same thing.
And no, it literally does. You don’t want to turn into a nazi bar, you don’t let Nazis in. If the owners let Nazis in, you don’t go to the bar and you tell every other fucker to do the same.
No, we’re talking about blocking an instance because it “accepted” an ICE account.
I know full well who they are. But they’re still - like it or not - a government organisation. There should be tools to help moderation in such situations. Like, if you have your average right-wing nutjob lying non-stop, flag the account, make it only publish posts after a review, or something.
OK, so what do you propose? Say, Johnny Regular signs up in
.blahaj.zone. Then goes insane and starts a mass shooting, killing a hundred people.Do we blow up the instance, blacklist everybody on it because “people died” and “nobody wants to be the instance with
ICEJohnny Regular on it”?So add a mechanism to review accounts before they’re created, especially for gov users, instead of nuking an instance because one got let in.
Ain’t my government (British), and blahaj.zone is hosted in Netherlands
Are you just admitting you have no more counterarguments?
Nobody is talking about “one got let in” though, they’re talking about officially opening the door wide open, like how Bsky did.
There’s a difference
Mate, this discussion is in response to this comment.
We obviously got off that topic ages ago
“We”? I didn’t. Everything I’m saying is still 100% in that context. Why in the world would I move away from it?
Well I guess that’s the problem then, I assumed you were arguing against systemwide ban of instances that intentionally open the door for them.
Yeah of course, if it’s an ICE account that just joins is their own accord, let that instance deal with it, not a problem. I think it’s stupid for anyone to argue to ban the instance for something outside their control.
But if they do as bsky.social main instance did; open the door, officially recognise them, and don’t kick/ban, then the instance is bad for the ecosystem and should be treated like the virus it is. That’s when to defederate it.
Again: saying that you should ban/isolate an instance for allowing an official government entity because you don’t agree with the government’s policies is just insanity.
Just imagine having to ban any and all instances that allow official accounts of ICE, any Chinese gov entities, anything from Saudi Arabia or the Emirates, anything from India, anything from Israel, anything from Venezuela, anything from russia…
And then you have situations like in Ukraine - imagine having Fediverse since 2010. You have an official UA Ministry of Internal Affairs account, all is good. Then the Maidan Protests happen, over 100 people are shot dead by Berkut (equivalent of US SWAT)… so now you have to ban the account? Ban the instance, even! But then the people of Ukraine prevail, Yanukovych runs to russia, Berkut forces dissolve and disappear into the wind… so you can now un-ban the instance!
It’s a mess, mate! It’s childish and it undermines any hope for any fediverse services to ever be considered an alternative to established social media sites, because - if nothing else - no sane journalist/reporter/researcher would ever commit to supporting a product where their source of information may get randomly removed because an account on an instance is connected to something heinous.
And you didn’t answer my question earlier, so I’m going to post it again: